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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:34 pm 
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Pete wrote:
Quote:
benedictjones wrote:-
how long for using a Trident?


Depends Ben, if you mean the overgrown salad fork or the guided missile. If you have enough of the latter you can pretty much do whatever you want without any fear of comeback.

Bob, nobody here is arguing that tougher sentencing isn't necessary and basing time served on which weapon is used seems bloody ridiculous.


much as a suitcase nuke could improve bits of south London i meant the gladiotorial variety :D


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:41 pm 
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'Tis cool Bob. I share a lot of your opinions. It's only the final step where we have to part company, I'm afraid.

So how did Ben get from opposing the death penalty to 'a suitcase nuke could improve bits of south London'? :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:07 pm 
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I think the significant number of killers that either take their own life or express a wish to be executed is an indicator of the fact that it's often an easy way out for them. rather than having to suffer the tedium of lifelong incarceration. Victims' families get a "life sentence", and so should the offender, in my view.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:25 pm 
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Pete wrote:
'Tis cool Bob. I share a lot of your opinions. It's only the final step where we have to part company, I'm afraid.

So how did Ben get from opposing the death penalty to 'a suitcase nuke could improve bits of south London'? :lol:


because i have to live here pete!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:57 pm 
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In that case, interesting suicide strategy. A tad over the top perhaps, but effective :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm 
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Bob Lock wrote:

Regarding capital punishment, I'm one of the minority that think in certain cases it should be re-introduced. However, there should not be the slightest doubt of the offenders culpability and by that I mean people like Fred West - Michael Ryan - Ian Brady where their guilt has been proven emphatically. If there is even the slightest doubt, then life imprisonment should mean just that, not just 12 years after parole.


I thought that if there is the "slightest doubt" then the accused is innocent.

Quoting Pete
Quote:
...capital punishment. If it's to stop people reoffending, then a 'life means life' sentence does the trick.

Obviously cp does stop reoffending but that is not the sole purpose.

Quote:
If it's to set an example and deter others, then it's probably wasted effort, as most offenders either a) don't think they'll get caught and/or b) can't help themselves anyway


I don't think this is the main purpose either. Society needs to see justice. Any punishment is for the audience not the offender and not for deterrence but balance.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Not sure that's the case Roy. I would have thought the first concern for legislators is ensuring the laws are obeyed and that we can all go about our business in safety.

Of course demonstrating that to the public is part of the process, but I still don't see why capital punishment would be preferable to a prison sentence. For every other crime a term in prison is regarded as suitable redress. Nobody suggests that, for example, rapists should be raped for the sake of balance.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:03 pm 
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Pete wrote:
Nobody suggests that, for example, rapists should be raped for the sake of balance.


I don't think I was suggesting that or even cp. Lots of crimes end up with a victim who is alive but will never properly recover from terrible injuries. I don't see the point of CP for killing someone but not for crippling them.

I suppose I was saying that justice is much more complex than just punishment for crimes.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:46 pm 
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Fair enough, Roy. I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at, and in context I took your comment about balance as a reference to the old lex talionis (an eye for an eye etc) formulation, and wondered if you were implying that a life for a life was the way to go.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:54 pm 
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I'm totally against capital punishment and as a society I think that however badly someone has committed a crime it is no excuse for us to then take that person's life. Crimes are committed for reasons - whether conscious or subconscious - and it's the reasons which need to be addressed, whilst at the same time fixing a prison sentence proportionate to the crime (life meaning life, etc). A lot of stuff is written about sentences not being long enough, but just imagine for a moment being inside for 30 years. It honestly wouldn't be the picnic that some newspapers make it out to be.

Anyway, I always said I'd leave the country if capital punishment was reintroduced, and hopefully I won't be getting my coat any time soon :)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:28 pm 
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Balance in the sense of scales of justice, which I've always assumed means weighing the crime against the punishment society considers appropriate.

As for CP how many of the 46% against would pay up if a government said it was bringing back execution for long sentence crimes unless enough citizens agreed to pay the extra tax, say 1p in the pound, need to keep the offenders incarcerated?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:40 pm 
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Well in America I think it's actually proven more expensive to execute prisoners, though in the main that's due to the cost of endless appeals.

But many of these people already get long stretches anyway (the examples Bob gave - Fred West, Ian Brady, Michael Ryan - were lifers), so I'm not sure why you think that will involve extra cost, or if it does then it's for the people who get out early or are given light sentences, and probably wouldn't have received death sentences anyway. Where does your figure of 1p in the pound come from?

In any event I don't think this is an argument where cost effectiveness should be an issue. I disagree with them, but I certainly wouldn't suggest that any of the 54% in favour of capital punishment think that way because it would mean tax cuts. As far as I know, even the BNP haven't come up with that gimmick. Yet.

As a matter of interest Roy, are you in favour of capital punishment?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:16 pm 
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There's also the "nothing to lose" issue; I'd imagine a British murderer would be more likely to go quietly than someone who knows being caught means certain death. No point here in going out all guns blazing.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:28 pm 
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Quote:
But many of these people already get long stretches anyway (the examples Bob gave - Fred West, Ian Brady, Michael Ryan - were lifers), so I'm not sure why you think that will involve extra cost, or if it does then it's for the people who get out early or are given light sentences, and probably wouldn't have received death sentences anyway. Where does your figure of 1p in the pound come from?


UK prisoners cost around 40 K per year. So 80,000 cost around £3 billion pa.
UK population is around 60 million. Assume one third (20 m) pay tax.
Assume an average of £18k taxable income and 20% is taxed. Then £0.01 per tax £1will pay for all the prisoners as we presently treat them.
Suppose it’s proposed to execute all the long term prisoners and (a guess) that saves half the money. Taxes are not reduced, the saving is used to rehabilitate young, short term and multi-term criminals. (Yes that is maybe 40K executions)

Then suppose the tax paying population is given the choice; pay more tax or the executions start. If 46% of taxpayers are against the death penalty (this is not capital punishment now) they would be asked to voluntarily contribute an extra £0.02 per tax £1 to prevent those executions. Would they do it? Would you?

It’s the sort of scenario I might use in a story.

Quote:
As a matter of interest Roy, are you in favour of capital punishment?
no but I wouldn't volunteer the extra 2p per tax £1.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:33 pm 
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I would pay more tax to stop executions if that hypothetical scenario was the case. Without question.

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